blademaster: claws or agiboots?

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blademaster: claws or agiboots?

Post  Steel.DX on Sun Aug 26, 2012 12:58 pm

Hiall,
i was asked if a blademaster should buy agiboots or claws.

i calculated stuff (hopefully correct Very Happy) and found claws are a little better. numbers you can find here:

http://i50.tinypic.com/2ihpitg.png

the result is that claws have slightly better dps. in addition to that, lasthitting is easier with claws since the damage of a single hit is larger.
since claws are cheaper, nobody will buy boots for agiheroes anymore after reading this.

the only advantage of boots are:
small armor bonus vs no armor bonus
better slow effect from slow orbif you dont have very much agi.


the formula for the dps is
dps=(bd+agi)*(1+0.02*agi)/bcd

dps=damage per second
bd= base damage
agi=agistats
bcd=base cooldown

if you add
nc= number of claws
nb=bumber of boots
the formula becomes

dps=(bd+agi+15*nc+8*nb)*(1+0.02*(agi+8*nb)/bcd
-sdx




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Re: blademaster: claws or agiboots?

Post  Lidltuete on Sun Aug 26, 2012 2:15 pm

For dps claws might be better (Im pretty sure theyre better and they become better with higher kritlvl).
But in earlygame it can be helpful to have the 3.5-4 (dont know the exact value) armor bonus. I think in the end it doesnt make such a big difference that its important for the game and its result.

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Re: blademaster: claws or agiboots?

Post  StiFleR01 on Sun Aug 26, 2012 2:31 pm

I play with claws, i prefer. easier to get the last hit
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Re: blademaster: claws or agiboots?

Post  RaM-bo on Sun Aug 26, 2012 3:42 pm

Im old school player and for bm still prefer 2x claws than 2x agi boots.
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Re: blademaster: claws or agiboots?

Post  Ylt on Mon Aug 27, 2012 11:48 am

For potm and bm better claws,coz potm imba dmg with arrow + claws bm crit+claws
i my team dont have stuners i learn mass mirror,then better aggi boots Very Happy
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Re: blademaster: claws or agiboots?

Post  motion_man on Mon Aug 27, 2012 1:57 pm

i thought agi bonus speed was reduced from 2% to 1% per agi point?
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Re: blademaster: claws or agiboots?

Post  Ace Ventura on Mon Aug 27, 2012 7:40 pm

motion_man wrote:i thought agi bonus speed was reduced from 2% to 1% per agi point?
no, its the default value 0.02 agi per agility, but the blademasters base attack speed has been increased to 1.83
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Re: blademaster: claws or agiboots?

Post  motion_man on Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:01 pm

ye, i kno default is 0,02, just thought u might have played with it.
btw whats the minimum attack cooldown, is there limit?
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Re: blademaster: claws or agiboots?

Post  Ace Ventura on Tue Aug 28, 2012 7:17 am

motion_man wrote:ye, i kno default is 0,02, just thought u might have played with it.
btw whats the minimum attack cooldown, is there limit?
i think the blademaster has one of the fastest base attack speeds

however alchemist in lvl9/10 rage has a base attack speed of 1.1
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Re: blademaster: claws or agiboots?

Post  Noctumonium on Tue Aug 28, 2012 10:35 am

Does it mean that blademaster at start does 1 hit every 1.87 seconds?
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Re: blademaster: claws or agiboots?

Post  Steel.DX on Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:31 pm

Does it mean that blademaster at start does 1 hit every 1.87 seconds?

if he had zero agi an no items that affect attackspeed or agi, than yes.


but the blademasters base attack speed has been increased to 1.83
i updated the calculation and the result is changes by a few hundredth of one dps, so technically it does not change the results.

btw whats the minimum attack cooldown, is there limit?
if there is no hardcoded limit, you can decrese it until zero at infinite agi. if you have a lot agi (a lot means much more than 1000) the attackspeed AS is
AS=BAS/(0.02*agi),
with BAS the basic attack speed.

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Re: blademaster: claws or agiboots?

Post  Ace Ventura on Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:38 pm

Steel.DX wrote:Hiall,
i was asked if a blademaster should buy agiboots or claws.

i calculated stuff (hopefully correct Very Happy) and found claws are a little better. numbers you can find here:

http://i50.tinypic.com/2ihpitg.png

the result is that claws have slightly better dps. in addition to that, lasthitting is easier with claws since the damage of a single hit is larger.
since claws are cheaper, nobody will buy boots for agiheroes anymore after reading this.

the only advantage of boots are:
small armor bonus vs no armor bonus
better slow effect from slow orbif you dont have very much agi.


the formula for the dps is
dps=(bd+agi)*(1+0.02*agi)/bcd

dps=damage per second
bd= base damage
agi=agistats
bcd=base cooldown

if you add
nc= number of claws
nb=bumber of boots
the formula becomes

dps=(bd+agi+15*nc+8*nb)*(1+0.02*(agi+8*nb)/bcd
-sdx



back2topic:
1) why is the cooldown decreasing so fast?^^
how did you calculated it? Smile

2) and is it possible to fill it one more time with the blademasters stats?
1.83 base cd, and it seems like that he has a base dmg of 23 with 23 agility, "die amount" is 2 and "sides per die" is 6, so he has at lvl1 25-35dmg
see also: http://wc3onlinetools.wc.funpic.de/damage_calculator/index.php?minimal_damage=0&maximal_damage=0&base_damage=23&die_amount=2&sides_per_die=6&code2dmg=Calculate

3) and i would like to see the effect on critical strike, i guess most of the players use it as their main ability and since you get also a bit more attack speed with agility boots you should also have a higher chance for crits ...


this was the only proper wc3 dps caluculator i found:
http://www.dotastrategy.com/library-guide-31-DPSGuide.html
i used it, also used the formulas but the results werent close with your results^^

maybe you can have a look at it, there is also a method how to add crit dmg to your formula Smile

(cant realy think atm, my brain is still in a mess about how to set up a win 2008 r2 server^^)
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Re: blademaster: claws or agiboots?

Post  Steel.DX on Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:05 pm

[to be edited...]

thanks for nice replies Smile i cant answer everything right now but ill start...



1) why is the cooldown decreasing so fast?^^
how did you calculated it? Smile

the cooldown is decreasing as f(x):=A/(1+B*x) does. thats pretty steep for small positive x:
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=1.83%2F%281%2B0.02*x%29+from+x%3D0+to+200
be aware of the fact that it is not so important how fast the cooldown decreases, but how fast the hits per second increase. this is a linear function (inverse of cooldown):
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=1%2F%281.83%2F%281%2B0.02*x%29%29+from+x%3D0+to+200

I calculated it as
CD=BCD/(1+0.02*agi)
with
CD= cooldown
BCD=basic cooldown
agi=agi stats

its the same math as in your link ace, except i have 2% IAS per agi, not 1%
source: 2.1 in http://warcraft.ingame.de/forum/showthread.php?t=180439

and is it possible to fill it one more time with the blademasters stats?
go ahead, heres the file, openoffice calc:
http://www.file-upload.net/download-4730512/agitabelle.ods.html
warning: its not completely free of hardcoding Wink

crits
afaik, the crits are totally boring for math (if averaged over many hits):
dpsc=dps*(1+CC*CD)
with
dpsc=DPS including crits
dps=DPS without including crits, the formula i stated in the first post
CC=chance of crit
CD=Crit damage

so if you have for exampe 17% chance of crit and you crit deals double damage (200%),
dpsc=dps*(1+0.17*2)
=dps*1.34

it is completely independent of you damage or stats or whatever, its a factor that is multiplied with the dps value )

dont drink and derive!
-sdx

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Re: blademaster: claws or agiboots?

Post  Steel.DX on Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:42 pm

hm it just came to my mind that , for crits, it could make a big difference if agi is considered and itemdamage not. anybody has information about that?

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Re: blademaster: claws or agiboots?

Post  StiFleR01 on Fri Sep 14, 2012 4:51 pm

In my opinion, item-damage (claws for exemple) are taken in consideration for the count of critical hits.
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Re: blademaster: claws or agiboots?

Post  motion_man on Sat Sep 15, 2012 12:29 am

Steel.DX wrote:hm it just came to my mind that , for crits, it could make a big difference if agi is considered and itemdamage not. anybody has information about that?
thats 1 of the ideas to balance the blademaster in ladder games since stacking bm with claws could give ridiculous crits
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Re: blademaster: claws or agiboots?

Post  Ace Ventura on Sat Sep 15, 2012 1:22 am

yes, i think so too
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Re: blademaster: claws or agiboots?

Post  Steel.DX on Sat Sep 15, 2012 2:52 pm

do you have a reliable source for this?

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Re: blademaster: claws or agiboots?

Post  motion_man on Sat Sep 15, 2012 4:50 pm

Steel.DX wrote:do you have a reliable source for this?
That claws (and in general green + dmg in stats) are calculated in crits?
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Re: blademaster: claws or agiboots?

Post  Scylla on Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:12 pm

hi^^ I read this topic for the second time, and it's very interesting (I love BM too^^)

but one question, I thk there is a problem in the following formula :
dps=(bd+agi)*(1+0.02*agi)/bcd

I thk it's more :
dps=(bd+agi)*([1+0.02]^agi)/bcd

no ? it depends a lot of the definition I thk. Smile
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